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Chess Forum - Let\'s talk about Sportsmanship in tournaments

Player: United  cc1422628594ChessHere Gold Member Subject: Let\'s talk about Sportsmanship in tournaments


2012-10-05 00:45:19
I\'m playing in a tournament where everyone has finished except one person. I don\'t want to mention his name because I don\'t want to embarrass him, BUT... here\'s the facts:

He\'s a whole rook down and in what I would call a lost position. So what does he do? He put himself on vacation for all the vacation days he had left for the year.

He just logged in yesterday even though he still has 51 days left for his vacation.

I sent him a PM telling him that I tell all my team members that if they have a lost game, just RESIGN IT and move on!

How many other players do we see that pull this stunt? It is poor sportsmanship to hold everyone up because you are losing a game.

These people often move in their other games WHILE ON VACATION! But refuse to move in their lost games.

THERE NEEDS TO BE A NEW RULE:
PLAYERS ON VACATION ARE NOT ALLOWED TO MOVE IN ANY OF THEIR GAMES!

Anyone back me on this?

Captain of the DUNE team,
Don
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4England  cc1422628553ChessHere Moderator2012-10-05 15:25:34
Apart from an admin message to all players asking them nicely not to abuse vacations and to act more sportmanlike in hopless game scenarios I dont think there is anything that can be done. If a block was put on so you couldn`t move while your vac flag was up, then they would just take it down, make their move/s and put it back up again. Thankfully the percentage of miscreants is very small and you have one weapon against them.....the ignore button. Ok, it`s locking the gate after the horse has bolted, but at least you can make sure you dont meet again. There is one other solution, and that would be for admin to appoint an arbitor with powers to decide games. I cant see that happening though as they would get flooded out with requests, and it`s up to the individual, as it stands, if they want to resign or move while on vacation.-

5England  cc1422628553ChessHere Moderator2012-10-05 15:26:14
Why dont my paragraphs work ?-

6United  cc1422628594ChessHere Gold Member2012-10-06 00:29:54
Let me test it for you. If this doesn\'t come out right I\'ll contact the webmaster.

Posted by extopian 2012-10-05 18:25:34

Apart from an admin message to all players asking them nicely not to abuse vacations and to act more sportmanlike in hopless game scenarios I dont think there is anything that can be done.

If a block was put on so you couldn`t move while your vac flag was up, then they would just take it down, make their moves and put it back up again.

Thankfully the percentage of miscreants is very small and you have one weapon against them.....the ignore button. Ok, it`s locking the gate after the horse has bolted, but at least you can make sure you dont meet again.

There is one other solution, and that would be for admin to appoint an arbitor with powers to decide games. I cant see that happening though as they would get flooded out with requests, and it`s up to the individual, as it stands, if they want to resign or move while on vacation.
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I reposted your message to see if the paragraphing works. If it does then you may have done something wrong... but if it doesn\'t work then we all need to tell the administrators at Chesshere.com that THIS IS A PRIORITY!!! FIX IT!!!
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Regarding your last paragraph, NOBODY wants the interference of an arbitor.
Leaving now to see if there is a problem with the paragraphs. (testing)

Don
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7United  cc1422628594ChessHere Gold Member2012-10-06 00:38:44
extopian,

As you can see the paragraphs work fine!
Maybe you didn\'t hit the <enter key> twice to drop down?

Also, regarding the middle of your post:
\"If a block was put on so you couldn`t move while your vac flag was up, then they would just take it down, make their moves and put it back up again.\"

There is an easy fix for that! Gameknot and other sites use it and the way it works is like this:

Whatever time you spent on vacation (be it 3 days or 50 days) you have to play that amount of time before you can request another vacation. Works pretty good!

I would like to hear from more members before I make a recommendation to the administrators. I told them that my team had a bunch of recommendations so I want to put these requests into a budle package and let them know that there are a lot of people who want some changes made.

Don
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8Europian  cc13741628192012-10-06 08:58:14
It\'s as extopian says, people could come off vacation, for a minute or two say, make the moves they want and go back on vacation. Also, as CaldasNovas says, making a move while on vacation is not necessarily unsporting. Banning moves on vacation, if it were an option, would hold up more games. I think an arbiter is a great idea for sorting out unsporting play and other abuses. Why not propose to adminchesshere that extopian and ANZARBOND, two premium members of long and good standing, who are active day in day out in both cc chess and forums, be given the job?-

9United  cc1422628594ChessHere Gold Member2012-10-06 15:20:49
As I mentioned above, Gameknot has the rule that if you come off of a vacation you have to wait for as long as you were on vacation before you can go back on vacation.

I think that\'s a great rule.

And as for having an arbitrator, it is my opinion from experience that that\'s a very bad thing to do. The games are between two players and should not be decided the outcome from a 3rd person. Setting up the programming properly fixes all the programs.

Let me reiterate what I\'m talking about so that everyone understands the problem that arises when a person can make moves while on vacation:
-----------------------------------
One of my experts told me that he was playing against another strong player in a 3 day time control. He said that his opponent put himself on vacation and is taking more than 3 days/move to decide on the best move.
But my team member pointed out that he only had 3 days to make a move. In short, by placing yourself on vacation you are avoiding the agreed upon time controls!

So, you say, my friend could also pull the same stunt and put himself on vacation.
Then pretty soon we have a trend where everybody is abusing the system!

No, the way to fix this problem is to not allow a person on vacation to make a move AND to appy the feature that once you go off vacation you can not go back on vacation until you have played the number of days that you were on vacation.

Is there anyone who will back me on this suggestion?

Don
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10United  aspviper666ChessHere Gold Member2012-10-06 15:42:45
When to resign? If I am playing a regular game OTB I resign when I have no hope of winning or drawing. I feel the same way online with some exceptions. If I feel it might benefit the team I will resign early or drag out a loss as the case may be.
Moving while on vacation is another can of worms, but it sounds like your guy is moving in some while just delaying your game because he\'s lost. It doesn\'t have any benefit for him to do so, so he\'s just being a jerk.
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11United  Poochy2012-10-06 16:42:47
Poochy28 10-06-12
I agree you shouldn\'t be able to make a move while you are on vacation would stop this problem. But I would like to see a rule along with your rule that if you wanted to come off vacation earlier than you had originally applied for that you could come off early and the days you didn\'t take wouldn\'t count as vacation days off.

Claude
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12England  cc1422628553ChessHere Moderator2012-10-06 16:54:47
You cant actually say how many days you`re going on vacation for. Your total amount of vacation days are shown every time you have a vacation.

It would be better to be able to give an indication of how long you`ll not be playing for....even if you just feel chessed out and feel like a few days off.
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13United  aspviper666ChessHere Gold Member2012-10-06 16:55:21
I feel it is far to easy to abuse the vacation system here. No moves in that game by either player while on one player is on vacation-

14United  Koyote2012-10-06 19:56:47
Playing chess on this site IS vacation! The time between moves can be very substantial and using the vacation function for anything other than the most dire circumstance is just silly. I wouldn\'t mind if it wasn\'t an option. If I\'m going on vacation I simply don\'t accept challenges. Maybe vacation should effect someone\'s rating due to wasting time on an accepted match.

I don\'t see the necessity of a vacation function and it is obviously abused.
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15India  jaguar1002012-10-06 22:25:39
players who r playing in many games or tournaments and r putting themselves on vacation should be removed . bsce they r uselessly holding the games. almost all the other players have finished their games but these few players have mde just 4--5 moves . such players r just there to irritate others. so such players should be reported by others and removed from tournament . no one wants a tournament to go on for months esp when 1--2 players r uselessly holding the games-

16United  cc1422628594ChessHere Gold Member2012-10-06 23:17:44
Speaking about good vs bad actions by players what do you think of this message I received from one of my top players? The message was sent by the player \'Undetermined\'

\"Undetermined > hello. i am currently trying to built the strongest correspondence team on chesshere. i have noticed you and really like the quality of your games. you are invited to join the Blackbishops team. it would be a pleasure for me to have you as a team mate. if you accept, please apply to join the Blackbishops team, or send me a message if you don\'t know how, and i will show you the steps : \"
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I could lock this guy out and all his team members, but I\'d rather let everyone know what he is doing! He is trying to steal your top team players!

Do you think that this action should be allowed?

My team is very honorable to me and the member he sent the message to chastized him for trying to pull him out of the DUNE team to join the Blackbishops team.
Should I tell the administrators? No, they have enough problems to handle - I\'ll tell all the other team captains instead.
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17Romania  LucianBadescu2012-10-07 08:23:48
i vote for .....PLAYERS ON VACATION ARE NOT ALLOWED TO MOVE IN ANY OF THEIR GAMES!

i hate when that things happened to me ..but i think that those are guys with some brain problems ...
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18Europian  cc13741628192012-10-07 09:13:52
Let\'s see who can shout loudest about sportsmanship.-

19Europian  cc13741628192012-10-07 12:32:35
Peace and goodwill to all man woman and childkind.-

20Egypt  kasparov912012-10-07 13:03:48
I also agree on not allowing players on vacations to move in any of their games. I don\'t like limiting my maximum vacation days to 30 days for example because sometimes I need more days (My college final exams usually lasts for more than a month).-

21United  Rustythedog2012-10-07 16:19:42
I agree with you Arrakis. It\'s not ethical nor sportsman like.-

22Europian  cc13741628192012-10-07 21:16:32
Actually, Arrakis09, I am sure you have highlighted a real problem, and I commend your endeavour to solve it.

I understand arbitration is the complicated option, but, sorry, it would still be my preference for resolving individual cases of abuse.

Please bear the following points in mind.

1) You ask us to discuss sporting behaviour in tournaments, and propose to restrict all members\' play in all games, including non-tournament games.

2) Making a move in a friendly game, especially an unrated game, while on vacation is not necessarily abusing the system.

3) Replying to 1 e4 while on vacation is not necessarily abusing the system.

4) Taking a vacation at the start of a tournament, say on your first move, while moving in other games, is not necessarily abusing the system.

5) Making a move where only one move is legal while on vacation is not necessarily abusing the system.

6) Completing an exchange or making a similarly obvious move while on vacation is not necessarily abusing the system.

7) The final round of the Bobby Fischer Memorial (I) was marred by time-outs, which was a crying shame. This is pertinent insofar as it arose through strict time controls, unpredictable start dates and extended events (without abuse of the vacation system).

8) I do like the suggestion #13 by aspviper666 \'no moves in that game by either player while on one player is on vacation\' (or that the player who is not on vacation might have the option of moving or not).

9) Posts here may not be representative of the silent majority of members.

There is already an unquestionable tendency to (shh!) stigmatise members who take vacations. At least, there is an intolerance towards those who take short, reasonable vacations and have unused vacation days every year. Occasionally it is suggested you shouldn\'t post in forums while on vacation. There are even judgments in forums concerning what constitutes a vacation.

Please point out to the webmaster that other options might be examined, including a combination of programming and arbitration.
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23United  cc1422628594ChessHere Gold Member2012-10-07 23:45:05
angelfish.

While I and others can appreciate some of your points I believe you are way off base in half of them.

I did not suggest your accusations of points
#1, #2, #3 and you completely changed my wording for your point #4.

Please use a little common sense when we are discussing a real problem.

Don
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24England  cc1422628553ChessHere Moderator2012-10-08 05:14:45
\"Vacation Days\" !
When new to internet chess the luxury of vacation days gives you a peace of mind that you wont time because you can plan....vacations. 40 days seems adequate, 80 days however can lead you to think:

1. what do I want 80 days for ?
2. mmm, I have an advantage of vacation days.
3. How can I turn it to my advantage over non-prems ?
4. Should I go on a spree and put my vac flag up for a month and play as the fancy takes me ? Is that what is expected ?

After a year playing and encountering the abuses of vacations I came to a conclusion that if \"vacation Days\" were renamed \"Free Days\" then the abuses would be covered under the title \"Free\".

Of course this would be giving in to the abusers and they would continue to disrupt, with a new found enthusiasm.

So, you cant change things within the current system. I didn`t think there could be a way, but Arrakis`s suggestion of not allowing a second vacation until the number of days of the previous vacation had passed seems feasible. Coupled with a - `no move while on vacation` -...it could, in theory be the answer to selective delaying in games.

This would stop a player popping out of vacation to move and popping back in again, because they could not go on vacation again until the amount of time they had been on vacation for had passed before a new vacation can be started.

Sounds a bit complex but I`m sure it could be worded easily.
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25United  cc1422628594ChessHere Gold Member2012-10-08 12:12:11
Thank you extoplan.

The easiest way I would handle it is like this:

If a person is on vacation and makes a move they are automatically shown the message: \"You are on vacation. Do you want to exit vacation?\" And the member can click yes or no.

When a person clicks to go on vacation the program already checks to see how many vacation days the person has left. While making that check the database can also include the number of days off vacation from the last vacation date. Then compare the last number of days off vacation versus the number of days last on vacation and if the result is less then a flag is shown and the message given: \"You have not played enough days to return to vacation!\"

As I mentioned above, other sites already have a version of this feature.

Cheers,
Don
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26United  Celecity2012-10-08 19:48:04
I agree and don\'t think it\'s fair-

27Europian  cc13741628192012-10-11 18:57:12
Arrakis09, my points in *22 are not \'accusations\'. Whatever you say, you do appear to be aiming to change everyone\'s vacation uses in all games. It could not be clearer in the UPPER CASE part of his top post. In four years I, and so presumably many others, have never encountered an opponent who has abused his vacation allowance, nor have I abused mine. All of the proposals you solicit support for would affect different players in different real ways: for example, the idea that coming off a vacation you must play for a duration equal to the vacation before taking another. At the end of the year an active non-Premium member with work or other commitments might well need to manage vacation time carefully and take short vacations frequently. I agree with points raised by three or four members in the thread, which have not been acknowledged. So I take exception to your advice (or is it a warning?) to \'use a little common sense when we are discussing a real problem\' and am discouraged from \'discussing\' this further.-

28United  cc1422628594ChessHere Gold Member2012-10-12 00:03:16
Thank you, angelfish, for stating that you will not post anymore regarding this subject.
It is obvious to me that (since you have never encountered a problem) that you don\'t understand the problem!

If you have read the replies to my request then you know that most players are in favor of changing the current system.

Don
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29Brazil  CaldasNovas2012-10-12 04:46:26
Personally one feels Arrakis could be a little calmer in this thread, Angelfish made some valid points here and you ignored them rather rudely, the best way to get people on your sied is to be nice to them!-

30United  cc1422628594ChessHere Gold Member2012-10-12 05:47:28
I am working for the ChessHere team.
It is my job to find flaws and suggest ways to fix them. It is not that I am rude to people, I have an agenda to help ChessHere become the number 1 best chess site.

In order to do that I have to relay the facts to everyone and be honest with all the players. I would like to be friends with everyone, but I have a job to do and if being honest with people offends someone then maybe they should listen to all the posts supporting all my recommendations.

Best regards,
Don
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31England  cc1422628553ChessHere Moderator2012-10-12 06:45:05
Is that official, that you are in an ongoing role to help make the site a better experience ?

If so then all I can say is, about time too, and good luck !

We`ve had many a good idea and issues fall on deaf ears over some years,.. as you know... and lost quite a few frustrated members.

You seem to have the neccessary communication skills needed, ( bit like a boss ) to speak the language of programming and be taken seriously by the owners.

I feel like the headmasters walked into the classroom and asked `whats going on`.
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32United  Celecity2012-10-12 08:26:47
I\'m only here because of Arrakis09, he\'s a chess promoter.

To tell you the truth I have no idea why he brought me here, neither do I like the place until now. But I hope to see it a better site soon. One thing that concerns me is the layout. I dislike it. Comparing it with other chess websites, I would rank this site as low, but I\'m just a follower despite my effort in telling Don \"I don\'t like it here so lets move on to another website\" He sees it in a different way.

All I want from chesshere is to make me want to come here, and not come here because of someone.
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33United  cc1422628594ChessHere Gold Member2012-10-12 11:02:09
To all my friends and members at ChessHere:

I want to thank my supporters, and especially the people who didn\'t want to stay here.

When I revisited this site 3 months ago I determined that it had great potential. I started negotiating with the owner of the site because they didn\'t even have a Team Forum. I also mentioned some bugs that I had caught and suggested why they were taking place (I was a professional programmer years ago).

I asked my close friends to \'Just give me 3 months and I will have this site working miracles - because the owner and programmers are willing to work with me.\'

All they needed was a little help in determining:

1) Debug, test and determine the problems from the users point of view.

2) Create a list of things that needed to be changed and how to go about changing them.

3) Which were the most important things to implement first?

4) Suggestions to the programmers to reduce errors and speed up the system.

5) Get rid of old data files and clean up the forums.

95% of the credit goes to the hard working team at ChessHere. They listened to me and then did the labor of fixing items that I brought to their attention.

I have to tell ya, it takes a lot of time to re-write all the code that they have done so far. In less than 3 months the team at ChessHere has accomplished these items:

1) Created a Team Forum.

2) Fixed the messages by allowing paragraphs.

3) Stopped that mysterious bug when you opened a game and some pieces were missing in the diagram!

4) Stopped the system lockups that were happening.

5) Cleaned up the database which showed over 350 teams on the site when many of them had disappeared and or, not logged in for over 3 years.

6) Gave the Team captain a place to insert a picture representing his/her team... and then had them redo it when it was too small.

7) Speeded up the system in both Blitz and Correspondence games.

8) Created new menu items for everyone such as when you click on \'Messages\' you can now click on the new menu \'Sent Messages\' which shows all the messages that you have sent.

9) Created a new challenge menu for captains to challenge other teams.

10) Created a new Open challenge menu to place your team members up for an Open match.

11) Sorted the members of a team by rating.

12) Stopped monitoring every personal message that is sent! They only look at the message if there is a complaint.
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And now 3 more exciting changes are coming out very soon!

1) An app for your iphone so you can play chess from your phone instead of a computer!

2) Members who are on vacation will NOT be able to make moves!

3) Members who timeout in games will automatically be set to losing the game.
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And at this point we are about half way through the list of changes that I am suggesting the ChessHere team make.

They have done an extraordinary job, but people like myself and Celecity want a little more...

In 6 months you are going to see some awesome changes! I don\'t want to tell you what they are because I want everyone to be very happy and surprized.
------------------------------------
Ok, time to wrap this up.
I understand that sometimes my messages are not polite. I\'m a systems manager. Sometimes a person has to step in and \'take over\'. I will not tolerate members posting messages that abuse other members; and most of you will appreciate it if a few troublemakers leave.

My goal is to improve the fun for everyone at this site.

Cheers,
Don
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